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I've pretty much been are considered

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myself an astrobiologist my whole

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professional career from the day I

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started graduate school so before I was

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an astrobiologist I was an undergrad

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physics major that dreamed of working at

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Fermilab and you know finding some of

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the fundamental particles that

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everything is made of but and I grew up

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in Chicago that's where that's the

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reason I focused on Fermilab but I

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quickly gravitated towards astrobiology

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for a couple reasons one is that

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top-level question I just I love the

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question of are we alone and so my whole

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career has been in pursuit of that when

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the other part of it was I really

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enjoyed the fact that an

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interdisciplinary science like

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astrobiology requires us to interact

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with each other and so it's Raw's to the

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field a bunch of people who like

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interacting with other people and I like

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being in that kind of environment it's

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nice on the day-to-day to be around

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other human beings that want to talk to

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me which you don't always get in science

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and it's something I really appreciate

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about astrobiology you know we all have

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our detailed questions that we get

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focused on but the thing about

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astrobiology is it draws you up from

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those detailed questions you work on and

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your and your research and in your

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papers and it gets you talking to people

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from totally different fields whether

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it's by I'm a geologist by training of

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you know astrobiology in geology but I

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talk to physicists I talked to

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astronomer as I talk to biologists and

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chemists now that we're having an

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influence on missions at NASA I talk to

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engineers all the time and and so I and

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I enjoy that I I really appreciate

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representing the science I do to people

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that are smart enough to understand it

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and interested in it but aren't the

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people I'm competing with or

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collaborating with on a day to day basis

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in terms of the detailed research

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questions I look at now in terms of the

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transition I because I was interested in

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astrobiology I sought out a graduate

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program that had that as part of its

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part of its core curriculum so I went to

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Penn State and and the reason I did is

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they had actually at the time they were

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the only place in the country that

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offered a PhD in astrobiology I think

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there are two places that do that now

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Penn State in the University of

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Washington but for me I sought out

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astrobiology you know it didn't sort of

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come to me

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in my career it's something I wanted to

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do from the outset and so I found the

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places that would that would help me

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become a bonafide you know degree

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carrying astrobiologist that's that's

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something I set out to do from the start

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so for me I found out about it from a

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couple popular science books I read a

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lot of books when I was in high school

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in college that were just popular

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science and and a lot of the ones that I

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really enjoyed were about astrobiology

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and I think if I were to give advice to

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any of the students coming up or but

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anyone that's thinking about a career in

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science it would be to find that to find

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something you love and and and for me it

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was the search for life but I think if

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you're interested in astrobiology

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there's a second component to that which

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is you know I said I went to school in

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astrobiology but I went really to school

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in a geology department that gave me a

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degree in both geology and astrobiology

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and so really if you want to be an

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astrobiologist you need to love the

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search for life but you also need to

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find some disciplinary questions some

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you know area of research that you can

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apply to astrobiology and you have to

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love that as well and that's important

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because everything in life is

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competitive these days even if it's not

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competitive in the mean-spirited sense

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its competitive in the sense of to

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people you know gunning for a starting

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position on a sports team there's a

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limited number of positions of open in

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the field there's a limited amount of

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funding in the field and that means you

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have to work really really hard to be

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successful even if you're

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extraordinarily smart you still have to

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work extremely hard and that's a lot

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easier to do if you love what you're

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doing on a day to day basis so my advice

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to anyone that's considering

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astrobiology or any other sign any

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career in general is find something you

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love because it's going to be harder -

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it's going to be easier to work hard to

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pursue the things you're passionate

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about so when I first started out I

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worked in a lab that looked at rocks

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from the ancient most parts of Earth we

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call the Archaean earth and we're

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looking at specific isotopes of iron in

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those rocks basically different flavors

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of iron that have different

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to see if we could tease out the

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conditions that were present on earlier

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so that's relevant to astrobiology

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because this period of Earth I refer to

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as the most alien planet for which we

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have data everything was different about

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the planet back then now I don't do that

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stuff anymore I almost never go into a

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lab unless it's a tour of someone else's

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lab and the reason for that is frankly

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I'm a really bad lab scientist right if

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you put me in there with a bunch of

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chemicals I know I'm klutzy I know I'm

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bound to spill a bunch of stuff and so I

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I had to find a different path and and

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and I eventually found my way into labs

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that did simulations that that modeled

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the data either that we've uncovered

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from ancient earth or now I'm working on

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simulating the data that were uncovering

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from the Mars rovers and the Mars

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orbiters and from the telescopes we'd

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like to build to one day look for life

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on other worlds so there's a second

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aspect of it which is you have to find

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something you love to do but then you

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have to find something related to that

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thing you love that you're actually good

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at and for me I'm I knew I was not very

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good at lab work so I had to find

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something else that I was that leveraged

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my skills and turns out I'm a pretty

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good programmer and so that was that was

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a place I could do astrobiology and

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leverage skillsets that I had for me it

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was not a big deal to switch between a

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couple things but they were at sort of

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natural transition points you know I've

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when you as you go through your career

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from an undergraduate student to a

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graduate student to a postdoc maybe to a

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second postdoc and eventually to a

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permanent position every one of those

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career changes is an opportunity for you

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to pivot and put a slightly different

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direction to where you're heading and so

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for me I was a lab scientist as an

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undergraduate and as a master student

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and I realized that I was not that great

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at that and so when I went and got my

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PhD when I entered the the PhD program I

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found a way to pivot to being a modeler

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and not have to be in the lab so much

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anymore and then I've since since I got

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hired at Goddard I've pivoted again and

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now I'm working on mission design and

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mission development and I'm working with

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engineers all the time and so I every

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time you have a career change with a new

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position in it it's an opportunity even

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if you don't leave the field you can

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change what part of the field you're

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having an impact on and what what your

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day-to-day life is like in terms of what

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kind of work you're doing I really enjoy

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working

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and team-based environments and so you

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know if you really like not doing that

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if you like going off on your own and

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doing some detailed question and not

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being bothered by other people you can

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be successful in astrobiology but you

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might be happier in another discipline

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where you can do that stuff and aren't

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expected to to interact with other

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people on the other hand if you're like

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me and you really like interacting with

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other people astrobiology is great

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because not only are people asking you

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to do that but you're gonna be more

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successful because of your ability to do

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that by developing the skills to do that

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and and the things you are required to

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do to be successful are just going to be

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more enjoyable on your daily in your

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daily experience and for me I really

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like stepping into rooms and into

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conversations where I don't know a large

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part of what's going on you know a lot

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of astrobiologists especially senior

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scientists that are used to being the

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expert in everything that they ever

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discuss can be uncomfortable when

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they're put in a situation where a large

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part of the conversation is a bit

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foreign to them for me I relish that I

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think that's such a great place to learn

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new things and to broaden my education

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in a way that my formal background as

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the geologist and previously as a

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physicist never would have done and I

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know more things about biology and

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chemistry and engineering that I ever

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would know just based on the

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interactions I've had with other human

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beings that are my colleagues and the

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people that I work with and and for me

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that's it it keeps things fresh for lack

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of a better word it makes it so that the

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things I know today and I need to know

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today are totally different from the

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things I'm going to need to know five

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years from now and that means that five

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years from now this is all going to

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still feel really new and exciting and

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adventurous and I I really love that it

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from

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that that is that is a huge part of why

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I love my job as an astrobiologist so I

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I do think it's important to specialize

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I think you know every good scientist is

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the one of the world's few experts in

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some tiny corner of knowledge but but

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the question is where do you build the

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web that that that bit of knowledge is

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connected to do you just build it to the

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people that would normally be housed in

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the same department and in the same

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physical building on a university campus

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or do you build that Network out to

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other disciplines and other buildings on

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campus or maybe even other campuses or

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other kinds of institutions and it's

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that's it's that second part of it it's

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not you know whether or not you need to

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have some detailed expertise it's how

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you connect the thread of that expertise

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to other areas of knowledge and so what

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for me what that meant is I honestly

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took a little bit of flack when I was a

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graduate student and I would ditch

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colloquiums that frankly weren't really

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relevant to the big picture questions I

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wanted to be pursuing but instead of

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going to those I was making time to

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maybe go to a biology lecture or a

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chemistry lecture outside of the geology

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department I was in yeah there's no

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doubt that any collaborative endeavor an

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astrobiology is absolutely no exception

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every collaborative endeavor requires

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you to be an active collaborator this

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this doesn't work if all you do is go to

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a bunch of lectures and sit back and

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just you know try to absorb it right and

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it actually doesn't work if you also

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just go to lectures and just tell the

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audience what they want to hear it only

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works if the conversations you're having

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are more than just two directional they

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need to be happening with broader people

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throughout a room and I actually think

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that the best successes that we've had

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in astrobiology come when we're actively

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fostering these multi-directional

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conversations between all these

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different different disciplines but that

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requires you to be active and you have

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to be a participant in a conversation as

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opposed to just someone that's receiving

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or delivering knowledge to another

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person in terms of how you build your

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network it also requires you to be

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active in that regard

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it means that when you have

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opportunities to go to conferences that

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could expand your network across

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disciplines that you should take those

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opportunities I think where I was very

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fortunate to be amongst the first

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generation of astrobiology students that

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went to things like the astrobiology

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grad conference the AB grad con that was

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a place where I got to know people on a

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personal level there who were and still

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are my friends that that are part of my

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professional collaborative network now

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as well and having those opportunities

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where you can build really strong

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relationships with other humans whose

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knowledge is critical to your to your

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success is it's a big part of this so

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you know the active part is to search

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out those opportunities and then when

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you're in those environments be an

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active participant in the conversations

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that are going on those are those two

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things are both important I want to

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emphasize how important AB grad con is

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to this this whole endeavor we thrive on

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the ability of our science community to

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work together and to work together

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amicably so that if we have a

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disagreement about something we can work

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it out it also means that we have to be

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really efficient at exchanging knowledge

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between these different fields we can't

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get too tied down and jargon or else

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those those lines of communication

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aren't going to work and the brain is a

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funny thing you know it if you if you

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try to train human brains to communicate

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certain ways too late in life or too far

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after they've been trained as scientists

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it becomes harder to break down the

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communication barriers that get stood up

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because we rely on jargon we get trained

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to rely on jargon we get trying to

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communicate in specific ways to our

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specific disciplines and at grad Cohn is

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a way to train us as astrobiologists to

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communicate in a in a first-order way

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before those habits are set and at the

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same time you're just developing these

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wonderful personal relationships with

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people that are going to be hopefully

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colleagues for the rest of your career

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so there's two aspects of it first

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you're learning how to communicate in a

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way that your your home department might

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not train you to communicate and that

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your that is going to be a professional

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tool that you're going to you're going

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to be able to use later in your career

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if you're not a national biologist

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because even if you don't do any

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astrobiology research even if you aren't

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a scientist at all that ability to

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communicate to other intelligent

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knowledgeable human beings about what

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you care about is so critical to success

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and in addition to that it is the first

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steps of developing a career-long

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network of people that that are going to

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help you do your work so one of the

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things that is different from my job as

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a NASA civil servant versus someone

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that's a professor at a university well

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let me start by talking about what's

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similar first of all I have something

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that's kind of like 10 year I have job

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security just like many tenure faculty

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do I do a lot of research just like a

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lot of tenure faculty - I write

379
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proposals and a part coop eye on

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proposals to get a research team

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together of graduate students and

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postdocs and I get to advise students

383
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just like university faculty - those

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things are relatively similar and so if

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you view yourself as a researcher and

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someone that wants to do that NASA other

387
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National Labs are pathways to doing that

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that that aren't the exact same thing as

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a University tenured faculty member now

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what's different is ah the other stuff

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outside the research is is totally

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different from what I would have at a

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university if I was a faculty member and

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have a lot of teaching responsibilities

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my advising responsibilities would be

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more formalized whereas at NASA they're

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kind of like added on to the things I'm

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required to do at NASA I'm required to

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help the agency put together a science

400
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plan and then carry that out through

401
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spaceflight missions so I get involved

402
00:14:23,930 --> 00:14:21,060
in things like the Mars Curiosity rover

403
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I get involved in our design of future

404
00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:26,040
telescopes that would look for life on

405
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:28,650
other worlds and and in in that role I'm

406
00:14:33,140 --> 00:14:31,290
interfacing with engineers interfacing

407
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with people that manage budgets and and

408
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and do programmatics to figure out how

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these things would actually get done or

410
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or in the cases of the ones that are

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flying or in or that I've landed on Mars

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already to think about what the next

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steps are going to be after that after

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that missions phone or with the

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engineers that are running the

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instrumentation on the fly and so it's a

417
00:14:55,340 --> 00:14:52,350
different group of people I'm

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00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:55,350
interacting with I actually think both

419
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are great career paths

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and my advice is you know because there

421
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are so many PhD is being produced every

422
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year that if you're a graduate student

423
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or if you're thinking about going to

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graduate school and astrobiology or any

425
00:15:13,530 --> 00:15:11,020
other area of science you have to keep

426
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:13,540
your options as open as possible so if

427
00:15:16,139 --> 00:15:14,800
you want to do research you should look

428
00:15:17,820 --> 00:15:16,149
at all the different kinds of

429
00:15:19,860 --> 00:15:17,830
institutions that will allow you to do

430
00:15:20,970 --> 00:15:19,870
that if you're interested in teaching

431
00:15:22,710 --> 00:15:20,980
you should look at all the different

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kinds of institutions that would allow

433
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:25,209
you to do that and so you know for me I

434
00:15:29,100 --> 00:15:27,250
was really passionate about research I

435
00:15:30,990 --> 00:15:29,110
was really passionate about the missions

436
00:15:33,030 --> 00:15:31,000
I happen to also be very passionate

437
00:15:34,590 --> 00:15:33,040
about teaching as well there's no way

438
00:15:37,199 --> 00:15:34,600
one human being can do all those things

439
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:37,209
so I I left myself open to applying for

440
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:39,730
faculty positions civil servant

441
00:15:43,470 --> 00:15:41,370
positions I actually realized the

442
00:15:45,060 --> 00:15:43,480
astronaut corps wasn't that much more

443
00:15:46,590 --> 00:15:45,070
competitive than some of the faculty

444
00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:46,600
positions that are out there in terms of

445
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:47,920
how many applicants I get so I actually

446
00:15:52,590 --> 00:15:51,040
apply to the astronaut corps and and

447
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:52,600
eventually the the one that came through

448
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:54,490
for me was the civil servant job that

449
00:15:58,560 --> 00:15:56,410
the job I have at NASA Goddard and I

450
00:16:00,449 --> 00:15:58,570
absolutely love it there I wish they had

451
00:16:02,550 --> 00:16:00,459
better public transit access to campus

452
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but everything else about my job at